Student Absences
Join any of the educational conversations that take place online and there is a conspicuous absence-the voice of students.
When you join a conversation in any of the online forums, whether that’s in Twitter, in a uStream presentation, or some other type of chat/presentation, kids are, for the most part, absent.
Generally, it’s the usual suspects that are involved. Me included. That’s not a criticism, just an observation. We’ve all heard before that these different venues, which can provide valuable learning experiences, are simply echo chambers for like-minded people, preaching to the choir. That’s probably a fair assessment.
Extend the idea of exclusion further. How many kids will present at your state conferences? At NECC, or some other major conference? K-12 Online? Is this something that they should do? Should there be a student strand at these conferences? Why don’t kids present and attend these conferences, as serious contributors? Do you know of any such opportunities for kids? Do you believe they are capable?
What other type of organization doesn’t listen to its clients? And survive?
OK, so what would be the value of including kids in these discussions? Would they tell us something we don’t know? Would we really want to hear what they have to say about school (I’m talking high school now)? And most importantly, would it really matter? Would there be a possibility that what students felt, and said about their own education would matter to schools, to administrators, and to teachers?
My guess is that it wouldn’t.
But that’s not surprising, is it? How much do we involve kids in the decision-making process in schools? Are they really part of any type of decision-making body in school that truly makes a difference in what takes place in classrooms? I’m sure there are examples, but those situations are certainly atypical. We know what is best for kids, don’t we?
So, what’s the value of including kids in online discussions? Two things: it prepares the next group to learn how networks, collaboration and ideas spread, and how learning together can occur, and that learning doesn't mean listening to one source of content, sitting in rows, and being passive, and 2, it gives them a place to be heard, a place which is not constrained by the traditional box that education says education must fit in. You can add yours to the comments below if you are inclined.
We have two teacher education classes in my school district. Kids that want to become teachers take a class on what it’s like to be a teacher. Pretty darn cool. But does the curriculum include such things as developing your own professional learning experiences, how to connect with other classrooms, other educators, and use networks for learning? Or are we teaching them to be us, in a sick, never-ending perpetuation of 1974? 1983? You pick the year.
But there’s hope.
Check out the things Clarence Fisher and Barbara Barreda are doing, what Darren Kuropatwa is doing with his calculus classes, check out what Konrad Glogowski’s kids are doing, check out what Vicki Davis and Julie Lindsay and the rest of the Flat Classroom Project classes are doing. Time will tell us whether restructuring learning like these teachers are doing improves student achievement. I’ll bet if you asked them, they’d already be able to tell you how, why, and how much…
You know, I’m tired of kids not being participants in the learning process. I’m tired of kids not enjoying school, not enjoying learning. I’m tired of the obvious look on their face that says school is simply a place to endure, a necessary rite of passage to something better.
Comments
It is interesting to me that you bring this up at this time.....due to the fact that we had two teenagers in WOW2 on Tuesday night -- and frankly I was pleased and on the other hand I was worried.
Pleased that they would contribute a great part to the conversation and we would learn from them. In fact, Arthus (14) (and I would like to invite Kevin W as well,) will be on our show in 2008.
Worried because we need to stay aware of that and choose words carefully at times because we have "youngsters in our audience. Not that they are immature, but adult chatter at times could be inappropriate....and we do need to stay wise.
I just finished hosting a project where over 11,000 students shared data with classes all around the USA, Canada, Scotland, and Japan. I am still working on how to get them communicating more -- but teachers are sharing that their students are engaged learners, they are having fun, they are learning in non-teacher driven but team collaboration ways -- and it is great to see the excitement.
Would you talk with Kevin about joining our show in January.....and perhaps you would like to join in as well??
Enjoy your day!
Thanks for the conversation.
Jennifer
Posted by: JenniferWagner | October 18, 2007 1:56 PM
Funny you should mention that David, I just did a presentation on Tween Social Networking at a tech conference in NJ:
http://tinyurl.com/25xx8z
Since I wanted an authentic demo of the tween sites, and I don't have an account (which would violate every TOS and rule of decency imaginable), I had my daughter record Camtasias of her using Webkinz, Club Penguin and Imbee.
She was terrific! Not suprisingly, she stole the show, and afterwards, we (she and I both) got an invite to present on this topic at an upcoming conference at Kean University in NJ:
http://tinyurl.com/38etk7
How cool is that...
My new motto: "Lead, Get Out Of the Way, the Follow." I've got a conference presentation in my head with that very title...
-kj-
Posted by: Kevin Jarrett | October 18, 2007 4:19 PM
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. As a high school student (in the author's district), I always see decisions being made that never take into account what the students will think. The fact of the matter is, these schools exist _for us_. If we weren't here, you'd be out of a job.
Sometimes the students actually know what's best for themselves.
But guaranteed, if students were somehow incorporated into the decision-making process, our ideas would be rejected at every turn. (First thing a student panel would tell my school administration: lighten up on the cell phone ban. Instant dissolution of the panel.)
And to think teachers actually wonder why the large majority of students are so apathetic towards their education...
(As always, my comments are directed at the school officials that are unlikely ever to read this blog.)
Posted by: Kevin Walter | October 18, 2007 7:42 PM
Jen: I would like to know more of that project...I am particularly interested in how these project leverage the network to be more effective. I'm thinking that while connecting is good, such projects really need to incorporate a component that extends and takes advantage of distance, of geography and worldview. Thanks for the comment.
Kevin J: you let your daughter present via Camtasia, and she stole the show. Big surprise there, huh? As my post indicated, more kids need to do this at conferences, it shouldn't be lip service, but serious presentations with perhaps adult/teacher guidance.
Kevin W: keep the comments coming! One question? How many of your friends read blogs and participate in this? Why you?
Posted by: David Jakes | October 18, 2007 10:17 PM
As an administrator in Dave's district, and Kevin's school, I too read blogs. Timing is amazing. I would like to have a discussion with our parents about social networking. Rather than recruit a "professional" to present to them, I have been considering having students do a demonstration and participate in the discussion. We'll talk soon, Kevin.
What Dave did not mention is that one of the students enrolled in our future teacher course attend a technology session with us last week. Dave and I led a discussion with our new teachers. Having a student in the room proved to be advantageous in reinforcing some ideas. He seemed to appreciate the opportunity to participate.
Posted by: Ed Schwartz | October 19, 2007 2:13 AM
David: A fair number of my fellow students read blogs, some without even knowing it. (To them, a blog is just another web site.) And also, many students' only exposure to blogs is through their own friends' MySpace postings, which generally consist of the most boring drivel I've ever read. As for taking an interest in their own education to the point of reading blogs about it, such as this one, that number is pretty limited...
Why me? My first exposure to the edublogosphere was at the workshop you and Mr. Gales invited me to back in the summer of 2005, but I was reading blogs for about a year before that.
Mr. Schwartz: I can't wait. :-) Looking forward to talking with you.
Posted by: Kevin Walter | October 19, 2007 4:14 AM
I have been on the web for about a year, writing on my blog and participating in education discussions. I am watching all of K12Online and participating in the Twitterverse (and UStream). But you are right to say that more students need to be involved in the discussion. I've tried to get a few of my friends into the edublogsphere, but most of them aren't interested. However, I think that would change if you gave them choices on a local level. Most students would love the opportunity to dictate the directions their school goes and what they learn.
I do think that students have a lot to add to the discussion. In reality, we do often know what is best for us. Perhaps you should reach out a little more and give us opportunities to share ideas?
As for conferences, I am working on a possible strand at EduCon 2.0. (Interested? http://tinyurl.com/2r92ub) Hopefully, we can get more students involved in the conversation.
Posted by: Arthus Erea | October 19, 2007 4:07 PM
Arthus: Do you think these networkinhg skills should be taught in schools? If so, what class, or all classes? Is the lack of participation due to a lack of interest or a lack of understanding about what this is all about?
Posted by: David Jakes | October 19, 2007 10:30 PM
Hi all,
I wrote a guide for how to include authentic student voice in presentations and conferences.
http://genyes.org/freeresources/
It's not effective to just trot kids out and expect them to be brilliant. That sometimes they are is an indication of the untapped talent that lies beneath the surface.
I think these skills need to be taught side by side with allowing students to have real input. The only way to empower students to own their own learning is by listening to what they have to say, and teaching them how to be effective communicators.
Posted by: sylvia martinez | October 23, 2007 5:49 PM
I agree that us students should be involved with the technology that we use every day. After all, this is our education. I think that every student should be involved with how their education is going to be run because this is our future.
Posted by: Catherine C. | October 29, 2007 2:50 PM
I think that kids should have a say. By having them say something could make a difference. Pulling teachers and other adults out of the era where it is hard to learn how to use a computer. By using technology then it will make daily life easier for kids in school. It will also make it better because then it will also make the school day more enjoyable. It will completely turn around the frown and blah face.
Posted by: Kyle D. | October 29, 2007 2:52 PM
I think that you are absolutely right. The students should be involved in discussions, involving how students should use technology. Truly, I wish that our school allowed the students to text message and use internet at home. I always thought "why can't we have internet access at home or why can't we text message our friends?" Personally, I do not get it. What's the point of having a laptop if you can't even use it in the way that you want to?
Posted by: Kristen K. | October 29, 2007 2:55 PM
On this subject, I agree with David Jakes because I think all students should have the chance to give input into our technology at school. The only way for us to learn is to know what is going on. Personally, I do not think it is fair that we can not participate in many different programs . Having laptops at Independence gives all the students a chance to better our learning, but that is not possible if we do not have the opportunity to give our side of the story about the use of technology in school.
Posted by: KarlyY | October 29, 2007 2:56 PM
In my opinion, the way that we are using computers for our school district is fair, but then again is not. Using computers is fair because the students have another way of doing homework assignments, and other things that other schools have to write. In a way, using computers is an easy way to get things done. Using computers is also unfair too. Many websites and other things such as AIM. Even though using some of these websites has nothing to do with school, it would be nice if we could be granted a little more freedom on the computer.
Posted by: danielle ny | October 29, 2007 2:56 PM
I really like this article because students should be able to use their machines how they please. This is our education, not the teachers! They had theirs already. I also hate the fact that in our school one person does something wrong on their laptop, and then everyone has to pay for what they did. To me its not fair! We have to learn how to use all applications but we cannot get too close to them because they could be taken away any second.
Posted by: Jackie M | October 29, 2007 2:57 PM
This is a very interesting argument. I strongly agree with what you are saying. Kids should be able to get into the discussion.
Posted by: K Adams | October 29, 2007 2:58 PM
Student involvement should be a part of technology discussion. People are discussing what is best for the kids technology wise, and not even taking the kids opinion. They are making these decisions and dont care how the kids feel. Then if something happens and the kids reject these rules and regulations, the people sit down and wonder what happened. The answer is plainand simple. Student Involvement.
Posted by: Cody S | October 29, 2007 2:59 PM
I think that students should have a voice in a discussion. The whole part of having laptops in schools is to help the students, but if the students do not get access to half of the laptops abilities then the point of getting the technology was kinda a waste of time. The students should get a say in how they get to use the laptops because when the laptops abilities are taken away it is just a load of more work and responsibility. This is why students should get to participate in discussions.
Posted by: Alex L | October 29, 2007 2:59 PM
I agree with this article. It if very informal about news that is about the kids, but not told to our faces. We should have a say in conversations that involve us. I haven't really thought about the technology issues.
I think that the way Mr. O'Hagen lets us use the laptops is fine. Everyone that thinks we need to be able to go on certain websites is the type of person that is addicted to the computer. Girls and boys in our school think we should be able to go on myspace.com or aim or facebook.com, but we really don't need those websites for school purposes. I am frustrated with the teachers in our school that don't let us print in class. I know that it takes up class time, but if we type up the assignment on our laptops (and don't have a printer to connect to our laptops at home) then how are we supposed to have the assignment printed out before we get to class? My others teachers before on of those classes (Mrs. Peters) are very nice and let us print out one of our assignments. That is the only thing that bugs me.
Posted by: Annie | October 29, 2007 3:00 PM
Hi
I'm 13 years old and our school let's us use laptops but we aren't allowed to use the bluetooth on our laptops or go on to chat sites. The teachers won't even let us print in some of our classes. All of that can help us achieve more and yet we can't use it. It gets worse and worse every year with more and more programs becoming unavailable. It is becoming a horrible program and it needs to improve. Improving it would help improve the student's interest in learning.
Posted by: John H | October 29, 2007 3:00 PM
As a student, I agree with you. Students should be involved in some of the same things that adults like teachers, administrators, and consultants. Some of the greatest ideas have come from kids; adults get credit for things that kids have come up with. At our school, we have laptops and only recently we are able to get internet at our homes, but you still need to have wireless. We cannot send instant messages or e-mails from our laptops even if it is to a teacher questioning on homework or something like that. And in some classes, we get a failing grade becuase we are not able to print in class. If they give us a laptop and tell us to type it up instead of write it, then shouldn't we be able to print with out repercussions? I do not think that it is bad that we cannot get on some websites at school or that we cannot instant message, but I think that at home, it would be okay.
Posted by: JessicaC. | October 29, 2007 3:03 PM
I strongly agree. I believe that most teachers think of students using this newly formed technology in only a negative way. Most students never imagine doing most of the things that teachers come up with. Times have changed dramastically and, for the most part, for the better. Students usually never get the chance to participate in discussions and decisions about OUR education. Ever since kids or teenagers these days have been born, we have been used to this new technology. We have devolped our lifestyles to depend on this technology and, when we arrive at school, the technology is ignored most of the time or it is looked at from a bad point of view. It’s not the computer’s fault that some students mistreat their laptops, computers, etc. It is our education. Should we be able to decide if we want to use technology during class and for class assignments? Personally, I don’t like how game websites are blocked on our laptops. I don’t play games a lot but, when I don’t have homework, I would like to have the choice to play them! It should be every child’s choice if they would rather listen and learn or goof off. Overall, thus article spoke directly to me.
Posted by: Leesa S. | October 29, 2007 4:13 PM
Sometimes I feel that it isn't fair that we don't get more voice as students as far as technology. It's like a guy could walk up to the school and say "This program is a guitar tuner- cook book combo that all students adore," and they'll listen to him! Luckily, this has not yet happened to my school, and I would like if students got more involved before this happens.
Posted by: Madeline Wierzal | October 29, 2007 7:38 PM
I agree with this article because I believe that it is important for kids to know what is going on. It is nice for me to learn things so that I can prepare for them or at least hear them.
I believe that there are good reasons to having a laptop and bad reasons. The good reasons are that we are able to go on it any time we want and we can do homework on it. I am thankful that we are able to print anything and that we have so many programs on our laptops. It is very important that we get our work done when we have to and the right way, too. These are the good reasons. The bad reasons are that we are not able to print in all of our classes. We can not play games on the internet during study hall. I agree that myspace.com or facebook.com are necessary, but what if students want to interact with one another. What if we have to discuss a project or homework. It would be nice to have a certain program that we could talk to eachother. If someone says something inappropriate, then they should only get their privelage taken away to interact, not everyone elses. That is something that frustrates me. If one person does something wrong, then everyone else gets punished, too. I believe that we should have a program like aim (but not aim) that we can interact with one another.
Posted by: Shea Schaaf | October 29, 2007 11:20 PM
I understand the restrictions that we have with our laptops. There is no reason for us to be able to go on myspace or aim or whatever because people would just do that instead of their work and get nothing done. I dont understand why people think that we need to be able to do that.
Posted by: Dan | October 30, 2007 12:23 AM
I have just quickly read what you have written. I am new to the world of student blogs - infact I was directed here by a student blog.
I think while it would be interesting to have student voice on social networking sites that teachers are using including twitter etc. I am not sure that I would like my own teenager networking in these circles. Believe me, I am not at all old fashioned in my teaching or my approach to education, but I would worry about what the students might potentially be being exposed to... I think that we NEED student voice, but maybe it needs to be in a very different place. I like student blogs and I find that some of the most extensive comment conversations are sustained over these - between both students and teachers.
On a side note, here at my school in Hamilton, New Zealand we have a future thinkers committee that involves the IT manager, 3 key teachers passionate about IT for education, IT professionals from the industry and students. We meet about once a term and share readings, discuss new ideas and have formed a vision for where our school wishes to head in order to build a strong position as being at the forefront of technology integration into education.
Posted by: Toni | October 31, 2007 12:38 AM
I think that our laptop priveleges are unfair. I think we should be able to instant message and use bluetooth. I also don't like that we can't print in our classes. If we were able to do all of these things we would be even better with technology.
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