Techlearning blog

David,

I've waited and watched as Students 2.0 got ready to launch itself into the edublogosphere.

So far, I'm not disappointed. The students are still creating their personna, fine-tuning their voice.

Their presence is needed: what we, as educators, believe is best for our students may be not always be the best choice for a generation so different from ours in many ways.

Students' opinions are not the definitive statement in education, but they are a necessary part of both the conversation and the solution.

diane

Diane: I agree with everything you say in your comment.

What other profession doesn't listen to it's clientle and expect to survive?

Well said, David.

I honestly hope that you're right.

Thanks, Darren. The next several years will prove interesting. I'll be interested to see how mainstream education responds to the presence of kids. I think successful schools will embrace a much more robust participation by kids in how schools work. They've been dormant for so long, but I think that it's changing, and it needs to be thought through by schools very carefully. It's new for schools, isn't it? How many schools are preparing for it? Perhaps the real question is: how many schools think it's desirable?

Yes, too many school administrators and teachers alike are afraid of what the kids can do and will say, once they are given any freedom to roam.

Sting said it best, if you ask me: When you love somebody, set them free.

In our case, I think that means giving them the tools, our trust, and the guidance it may take to help them get started.

You ask what we can expect from them? We can expect them to write as best they can and agree or disagree with them at appropriate times. The challenge they have taken on is very difficult and also very important. We should hold them to high standards because they want high standards. They should expect nothing less from us.

If we, the educators, don't take the opportunity for open public discussion on these issues with the students, than we are missing out on a fantastic opportunity.

You ask how we should respond regarding their possible lack of understanding the pressures associated with NCLB and AYP, funding issues, teacher retention challenges, and outdated physical infrastructures. Our response should be to have open discussion with them about these pressures at the appropriate times.

I am willing to guarantee that they can come up with some amazing solutions that educators and politicians would never have thought of...

Lastly... I am mostly concerned that education will continue to ignore the changes these kids will want to bring about because education is not truly about pure education. Education is directed and run by too many outside political and economic forces that are not truly interested in pure education.

Unfortunately public school is also about control, conformity, behavior, popularity, and a myriad of social ills.

I am very optimistic by students2oh.org and the many students I have an opportunity to work with in my classes. Set high standards and the vast majority of time the students will reach them.

Hi David,

This seems to be building to some sort of dramatic end. Will they succeed? Will they flop? Will people be turned off by the perceived arrogance? Or will we, as adults, learn to appreciate the visions of these millennials? I am watching the kids, sometimes like watching a traffic accident. I wish them luck in their endeavor and I sincerely hope they find their voice that resonates with everyone. Only time will tell.

From the post today from Kevin Walter:

"The educational institution has been ingrained in my peers as evil. Homework, standardized tests, reading “boring” books, learning “useless” knowledge, and on top of that, teachers are of course out to get us. Trust me, they are all bad.

Well, that's one way to build readership...

Take a look at the number of comments they are getting per post and then tell me that there isn't power in their work already. I was giddy when I received 2 comments and its been a while since I had that many!

Yeah, I think Bill Fitzgerald and Sylvia Martinez did a real nice job with them.

David, Is that our Kevin Walter?

Great post!

I find the tone of this post and most of the comments (Scott Meech is a refreshing exception) somehow condescending.

They're blogging. They don't need the approval of any particular person or group of people to "succeed," I'd argue - whatever "success" means in this context - to continue doing so, and having conversations with those who converse with them.

Kevin Walter has commented about how adults apparently don't read emoticons, because the ;-) after his ironic remark about teachers is not being noticed by most.

Anyway, instead of more talking from the echo chamber, maybe it should join the conversation?

This is all delicious fun to watch the adults try to adjust to.

And do we really need to keep calling them "kids"? I catch the '70s rock allusion, but still.

And yes, David(s), you know Kevin - but no, he is not "yours."

Can't resist, David - "It was going to happen" when somebody decided to do, instead of talk.

One of the most disturbing things about most edubloggers - particularly ones who no longer teach - is that they seem to have no direct connections to them, by and large, and so only talk

a) to teachers in workshops about doing; or

b) to each other on their blogs, twitters, etc about doing (or just congratulating themselves about their latest great talking).

That's too easy. And leaves them borrowing other teachers' students for their little dog and pony shows (David W's recent post is a case in point).

--

Nothing happens because of time, necessarily, except aging and dying.

Stuff happens because people make stuff happen.

No preview or edit for commenters on TL, so sorry to have to correct here:

"no direct connections to THEM" above should read *students.

And why not html allowed on a "Tech" blog? Weird.

Clay: I find your comments interesting, and with a condescending tone.

I'm sure you are directing your comments at me when you talk about edubloggers who no longer teach, and just do "dog and pony shows." So that you know, I teach every day, I'm in classes on a daily basis so I do have a direct connection. to kids. If you are directing your comments to others mentioned in your comments, then you should consider that there are multiple ways to make an impact. Or, is the classroom the only way?

I've never claimed anything about Kevin, except the full disclosure statement indicating he was a student in the district I work for.

Keep up the great work with the kids...

David,

When big boys are wrong, they admit it, and I admit it here: the tone was wrong. Call it an occupational hazard for a fiery temperament - and one that was in need of sleep before responding.

So mea culpa on the tone.

Now for the substance: I do get rankled when I read students referred to as "kids." I still hold that's condescending, even if well-intended, and does nothing to create an open mindset to the ideas and opinions of the people in our classrooms. Call me nit-picky. I'll plead guilty. But I still believe the label harmful. These young people can handle physics, Shakespeare, and calculus; in many non-Western societies they are welcomed as fellow adults, start families, etc. See Yale psychologist Epstein's "The Argument Against Adolescence" (Google Psychology Today for a good overview) for a forceful polemic against such infantilizing words as "kids" for these young adults.

Next on the list is the issue of our professional and communal relations with students, and this one is tough. Here goes:

I'll eat humble pie for violating my own First Commandment of Thinking: "Know when you know, and know when you don't know" (it's a riff on Confucius). Since I don't know your daily round, I was foolish to imply I did. And for that, big boy again, I offer a simple apology.

But I still think there is something worth thinking about here about so many who seem to have left the classroom in order to give workshops to teachers and administrations. In a nutshell, it's this: it gives these adults too much power as the gatekeepers to change.

My point in launching Students 2.0 was to model that we can eliminate these middlemen by going directly to students worldwide.

We can create the authentic learning projects without asking teachers' permission, and then point to them as models and examples of new ways of doing things. It's pull instead of push.

The backstory of my little splenetic episode is this: I launched a project over the summer similar in scope and relevance to Students 2.0, and created a Ning as a first step. Within a week, about 100 adults joined it - mostly tech specialists - but none of them were able to produce a single student for this student-centered project. To me that was a troublesome indication of a widespread divide, in this case anyway, between the evangelists and the students themselves. I ultimately had to ask these adults to leave the Ning, because the students working in it were unsettled by the majority of adults sharing the space with them without contributing any peers to work with them.

So: giving workshops to teachers and administrators may indeed be a way to effect change (though don't we most often read accounts by these very workshop presenters about the frustrations they feel about their own effectiveness in this pursuit?). I don't mean to argue an either/or here. Instead, I'm saying that a both/and is in order: direct connections with students too, and action to create the realities for and with students that we wish schools everywhere would buy into - THAT'S what I'm arguing for.

For those whom the shoe doesn't fit, I again apologize.

One last thing to say: Kevin Walter tells me that he owes a debt of gratitude to both of you "Davids" for helping him start years ago. So good on you.

I don't know about you, but I've had many instances of professional conflict being followed by professional peace-making. I hope you accept the virtual handshake.

As for the rest, we'll keep pushing and pulling, and hope for the best.

Clay:

Sorry for taking so long to respond….

Kids: I asked a group (seniors) that I was working with if it bothered them to be called “kids.” They said they would prefer to be called students instead…so, I probably need to rethink the use of the term kids. I catch myself now, so I’m making the adjustment.

Consultants: Consultants, like teachers, can be good or bad. And how they are used can also be good, and also problematic. I think that consultants can be used to provide new ideas, new perspectives, and sometimes jump-start thinking. I also think that the experiences that these individuals provide need to be re-thought-too often they’re brought in for a day and then gone. Having done that myself, and being guilty of accepting such jobs, I try and work with the school district as much as possible to help them sustain momentum created by the experience. I know that you are familiar with the work of Will Richardson and Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach in regards to their Powerful Learning Practice model (http://plpnetwork.com/). I think we need more of this. It’s my belief that consultants can indeed be part of the equation…

You mention that consultants have “too much power as the gatekeepers to change.” I can see your point on that-but that is the fault of the school administration, and not the consultant. Schools can always say no to any or all of a consultant’s tactics, practices, ideas, or suggestions.

I like this quote from Douglas Rushkoff, author of Get Back in the Box: “stop solving your problems from the outside it. Get back in the box and do the thing you actually do best. This disciplined commitment to your own core passion-and not a consultant, ad campaign, or business plan---is the source of true innovation.” That being said, consultants can be useful in getting the ball rolling, and helping schools, in partnership, structure the necessary next steps.

Ning: of course, much depends on how the experience is structured. I’m not aware of how you built that out so I won’t make any other comments about your specific experience. However, I would suggest that there is a tendency by many to join these networks and then not participate, or participate in the manner that was intended. I’m guilty of it myself. I do think that the experiences you and other “early adopters” (not sure if I like that label) are trying to build for students helps in this manner, and provides the rest of us with examples of how to structure it properly.

No need to apologize for anything. I enjoy your passion and look forward to following what you do.